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Presocratics / Re: Parmenides essays
« Last post by StircrazyReality on September 17, 2017, 12:15:28 pm »
On the Three main clarifying questions

1. Form and Content
How do we understand a didactic poem?
Answer: There is no distinction between form and content in ancient Greek.
The Standard Interpretation takes content, philosophical propositions, and discards the rest as 'artistic dressing'. I think this is misguided.

As a side note: There is no 'Art' in Greek. There is Techne. (From this we get technology in English). We can see there is a unity in technology and art in Greek. More importantly, there is a unity in thinking and art.

This is only a rough exploration on my part, but I found this in 'The Question Concerning Technology'

Quote
techne is the name not only for the activities and skills of the
craftsman, but also for the arts of the mind and the fine arts.
Techne belongs to bringing-forth, to poiesis; it is something
poietic

I will try and expand on Techne in a new post at a later date (This gives us a lot to think about concerning what art is)

2.
God
Christian and Greek
What is the place for the divine?

A place for further reading
Heidegger, Martin. Parmenides. Translated by Andre Schuwer and Richard Rojcewicz. Indiana University Press, 1982
Part one §6 f.

Chapter Summery
The difference between the Greek gods and the Christian God. The word as naming Being in its looking-into, and myth as a mode of the relation to appearing Being. Man: the God-sayer. "Decline" of cultures (Nietzsche, Speng-ler). The basic character of the oblivion of being: A-theism.

3.
Aletheia
I have to gain an understanding on how concealing and unconcealing are fundamentally related. Xavier has mentioned this point.
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Presocratics / Re: Parmenides essays
« Last post by xavierhn on September 16, 2017, 08:58:56 pm »
The question we have for Parmenides is why is his poem at the beginning of philosophy? We have to keep this in mind, as a guiding question throughout our studies.

Proem

What is the message of the proem?

Aletheia:
i) to be experienced
ii) is the pathway itself
iii) guides the traveller

That aletheia is to be experienced, i.e., the 'being' of aletheia as that which belongs solely to aletheia is the experience being sought. The unfolding of the experience and the pathway are, therefore, the same. The traveller is placed along and is travelling to end upon 'aletheia'.

First point - aletheia as a pathway is being thought of as a 'place', neither a destination a (mountain peak) nor a track to walk down. You're on the right track Mitchell, with elevation and placement, but we to hold off on making imagery speak the thoughts of Parmenides. How can we better understand 'place' (residence, location, dwelling, appointment etc.) qua aletheia?

Three main clarifying questions

1)

Form - 'poem'
Content - 'philosophy'

How can we better think of didactic poem?

2)

God -
Christain
Greek

What is the difference between these? And in particular, how do they differ in the relationship of 'mortals' to the divine? We need to know so we can better understand why Parmenides has a goddess delivering the way toward aletheia.


3) Aletheia

Translates literally as 'unconcealment'. How are we to understand this word better?

Αληθεια - noun., literal - unconcealment.

α - alpha is a privative. What does the privative relate to in the meaning of the word?

What is ‘un-concealed’?

Beings as a whole.

How do we understand beings as a whole? Like φυσις and λόγος concerns beings as a whole, i.e., the manifold of beings. What do φυσις and λόγος mean, and, additionally, how do they help us understand beings as a whole?

The basic meaning of φύσις is self-emergence, and λόγος gathering.

As a whole in the way of saying ‘manifold’ means as a unity with respective to what holds a unity together. The key here is what enables a holding together? When we speak of being as a whole, if we are to speak of it in a Greek way, we must clarify what this kind of holding together of an unity is. In other words, enables beings to hold together?

Heraclitus gives us the word  έν πάντα translated by Robinson as one thing. This interpretation is incorrect and misleading. Incorrect for Heraclitus is not referring to a ‘thing’, but to what unifies, and misleading, because the one and whole are not separate. The proper meaning of έν πάντα is the holding together of all beings. The holding together characterises all beings to which we have the first meaning of a manifold, neither one nor many but what unifies the one and many.

Our first question is what is un-concealed? We now can answer the holding together of beings is ‘un-concealed’. Concealing and unconcealing respectively relate to how beings hold together. We still need to answer, however, what enables beings to hold together.

What enables beings to be? This is the underlying question that αληθεια  presents to us. With this question we can better approach Heraclitus and Parmenides as thinkers who provide an answer to the enabling of being - how is this possible?
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General Discussion / UYSD Philosophy units for 2018
« Last post by StircrazyReality on September 15, 2017, 02:00:46 pm »
For general Interest here are the USYD philosophy units of study for 2018.

I wonder who is teaching Existentialism? I thought Dalia was still going to be on leave.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WTBAUfGL71Lip-syZtqkeNuQfrAJWXuzjhKn2WX5hH4/edit#gid=0
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Presocratics / Re: Parmenides essays
« Last post by StircrazyReality on September 15, 2017, 01:51:05 pm »
I would love to have a discourse on this reading of the Proem. Feel free to comment.

Reflections
I received a mark of 95 for this essay, which is quite a improvement on my previous 74. I kept a similar level of analysis, but learnt how to improve the clarity and structure of my essay (Thanks Ruell [He stopped me saying 'choosing the choice' instead of choosing. I don't know why I seem to tend towards such language]).

One of Aidan's comments was a question on how to deal with the apparent catch-22 of having to be 'one who knows', before embarking on the 'path to knowledge'. My response would be based on clarifying that it is not the path to knowledge, but the path to Truth.

Another of his comments was querying why I chose to thematise 'elevation'. I must admit, I had difficulty naming this theme, I thought maybe 'ascendence' or 'transcendence' may capture it better, but in the end stuck to 'elevation'. The basic concept is that the movement of the journey is not on a flat 'plane', but is rather 'up'. If we tentatively choose the word value, then the journey is not between two places of equal value, or towards a place of lesser value, but is rather towards a place of greater value (what ever value here means). As if one is climbing a mountain path, one can later look down and observe the lower paths from above. The word transcendence seems to have a extra note of surpassing that I did not want. I also note that the origin of the word 'elevate' contains the Latin 'levare' for 'lighten'.

I suppose a final note is that I actually spliced translations here to get the sense of words that I wanted. It feels a bit dishonest, but as I can't read Greek (And didn't have the time to look up each word on Perseus), and as translation is reliant on a 'second author' (I have a post on this concept on the forum), it is perhaps partly justified to choose a translation of a given word based on personal preference.
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Philosophical Resources / Re: Philosophy and Serenity
« Last post by StircrazyReality on September 15, 2017, 01:35:26 pm »

Quote
Aṅguttara Nikāya
A Share in Clear Knowing (or True Knowledge)

“These two qualities have a share in clear knowing/true knowledge. Which two? Serenity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).

“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned.

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned.

“A mind defiled by passion is not liberated; and wisdom defiled by ignorance is not developed. Thus from the fading of passion is there liberation of mind. From the fading of ignorance is there liberation by wisdom.”

Source: SuttaCentral, https://suttacentral.net/en/an2.31.
Translation modified based on translation by Bikkhu Bodhi
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Philosophy and Literature / The Second Author
« Last post by StircrazyReality on September 15, 2017, 01:26:39 pm »
The Translation Wars
For anyone interested in the topic of translation I would very much recommend they read this fantastic piece of journalism.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/11/07/the-translation-wars


When we read a translation, we are reading the work of two authors - the original creator, and the translator.

Quote
“Hemingway read Garnett’s Dostoyevsky and he said it influenced him. But Hemingway was just as influenced by Constance Garnett as he was by Fyodor Dostoyevsky. Garnett breaks things into simple sentences, she Hemingwayizes Dostoyevsky, if you see what I mean.”

Choosing who that second author is is an important question. For much of Russian literature the default second author/translator is Mrs. Constance Garnett. She machine fires pages upon pages of translations. However her concern is volume of literature, not form, accuracy, subtly or preserving what she can of the quirks of the original language and author.

An alternative for Doestoevsky for example, is "the Pevear-Volokhonsky translation of “The Brothers Karamazov” [which] won almost uniformly positive reviews and the PEN prize for translation." I followed up on these prizes for translation, and realised ever more how much of an art form the work of this second author is.

I have now resolved that each time I read a text not originally in English, I shall spend half a day researching which translation I would prefer.

I want to note that discussions with Sam Shpall helped through some light on my understanding of translation. (He also has an excellent library of translated works in the quad)
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Philosophy and Literature / Re: Art, our aim as a society - Rilke and Socrates as guidance
« Last post by Sam_Milch on September 15, 2017, 12:01:03 pm »
Inspiring stuff Xavier!

I refuse to believe artistic experiences, from which I draw so much deep meaning and feeling, could be nothing but pleasing distraction from the abyss. Rather I believe that when I connect fully with something truly beautiful there occurs a genuine obliteration of nothingness. One of my favourites, Simone Weil, said "Everything beautiful has a mark of eternity."

There are other phenomenal benefits of art of course, but for me its greatest lesson is the extraordinary nature of our internal selves. To think that this immense plethora of artistic creation exists in the world, ever growing, springing from the depths of individuals themselves. Sure, they may be directly inspired by external stimuli, but all great works (in my opinion)  contain the imprint of the artist's soul (or any metaphor you'd like an individual's deepest qualities).

I'm hugely into classical music also! I'm a cellist with fairly unrealistic dreams of playing professionally, so if anyone ever wanted to chat specifically about music I'd be more than interested.

48
Philosophy and Literature / Art, our aim as a society - Rilke and Socrates as guidance
« Last post by xavierhn on September 13, 2017, 03:57:32 pm »
I want to learn more about art. Perhaps as a way to help us think, because science ain't gonna do that for us not only because it 'calculates', but, rather, above all else, it cannot show us its own ground. However, contemporary art is much like what we've discovered here with philosophy, a pleasing distraction from the abyss.

With our reading group now, I was thinking we could have times where we go to galleries seeing visual arts, share poetry we like. Discuss novels. And also reading some art history.
I know of one person who is studying music atm, and he's into philosophy. I reckon he'd be down for this and he could teach us about classical music.

The bigger picture here is overcoming nihilism, meaning, we are capable of having urgency behind our thinking. That we have things to say. In someway, I feel we can look to the arts to help us with this urgency. Rilke, the great German lyrical poet, wrote once to a young poet who was doubtful of his writing, that the question he needs to ask himself, is at the most silent hour of night: must I write? Rilke went on to say, if your answer rings out in assent, if you meet this solemn question with a strong, simple "I must" then build your life in accordance with this necessity; your whole life, even into its humblest and most indifferent hour, must become a sign and witness to this impulse.

This is what we need to find; we must be able to take up Rilke's question. We can also look to what Socrates said in his trial, that he lives to philosophise by the gods direction, and he would rather die than give that up. To which he did.
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Presocratics / Re: Parmenides essays
« Last post by pdrsn on September 12, 2017, 09:42:09 pm »
I will argue that there is some merit to interpreting the proem as revealing the difficult journey toward wisdom and revealing the nature of wisdom.
I say the nature of wisdom because in last lines:

“It is proper that you should learn all things, both the unshaken heart of well-rounded truth, and the opinions of mortals, in which there is no true reliance. But nonetheless you shall learn these things too, how what is believed would have to be assuredly, pervading all things throughout.”

The goddess clearly states that there is more to learn than just truth, but also the opinions of mortals.  We must speculate as to why is it essential to learn what at first sounds like useless knowledge, perhaps to know what is defective is beneficial, just like debaters wish to know bad arguments well so that they can always dismantle them and feel triumphant. Although, there may be an additional way of reading this which is more in line with my interpretation and that somehow these ‘mere’ opinions even with their unreliability is “proper” to learn because it is good to know, perhaps unreliable knowledge in tandem with  “the unshaken heart…” of truth are essential. I think that despite the elevation of truth and the disrepute of opinion, absolutely no individual can claim that they live only doing what is based on truth, so many actions are done without even thinking but just by ill-thought intuition. The last line of the above quote implies the dominate status of “what is believed” but still without explicit judgement on the utility of opinion, this subtle ‘ambiguity’ seems to lead us to rethink the value of knowledge based on opinion. That is, wisdom is more than just the dogmatic opinion of what ‘truth’ is, an example of this would be positivists who consider anything not ‘objective’ as nonsense.

In regards to the part of my interpretation concerning the “difficult journey” toward wisdom some of this fact is contained above. However in more explicit ways we counter the standard interpretation and wonder if the individual being conveyed in the chariot is going willingly? The mares “carry” him, “they” set him on the road, the chariot was “straining”, the axles gave out a “whistle”, “blazing” and the wheels were “pressed hard”; altogether already at the beginning of the proem we almost get a sense that the individual is being forced to his lesson on wisdom and it is out of his control. Does this suggest something of the nature of wisdom? Even more so he is “escorted” by the daughters of the sun and we hear that these creature of the light came from the halls of night? Taken metaphorically why does ‘truth’ if it is associated with light mingle and inhabit ‘darkness’ or falsity? We see more of what could be out of character behaviour from Justice, she is “avenging” but not only Night but also Day locking them  up and only letting them free by “cunning” from the daughters of the sun. We have unexplained metaphors of light being associated with cunning and deceit but also being against Justice.

There are a lot of questions and clashing actions that do not sit well with the connotations we have of the concepts of good, bad, light, dark, justice and injustice. We also have an individual that seems to not seek wisdom but it forced toward it and given advice that is confusing because it lumps truth with opinion. I conclude that there is some precedent from all that I have presented in the interpretation that Parmenides is speaking about nature of wisdom.

Works Cited
Kirk, Raven, Schofield. The Presocratic Philosophers. Cambridge University Press: New York. 2007
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Presocratics / Parmenides essays
« Last post by xavierhn on September 12, 2017, 06:52:56 pm »
Q. Provide a philosophical interpretation of the Proem (or part thereof) of Parmenides. If you don’t see the Proem as philosophical at all, what purpose does it serve?

Parmenides Proem details a poetic stint of travel. Our first question is, what kind of travel is being undertaken here? And is this ‘travel’ philosophical or not? I will argue that the proem serves the purpose of foreshadowing, framing that ‘truth’ is to be taken in an unexplored way, which is valuable in a philosophical way, for it alerts readers to be themselves critical of their own relation to ‘truth’.

The travel starts with an individual upon a chariot led by maidens to a gate, ending through a small speech given by a goddess. Our first indication of what kind of travel this poem is referring to is given in second line, where the traveller is placed “upon the much-speaking route”(1.2). Continuing onto the next line “Of the goddess, that carries everywhere unscathed the man who knows”(1.3). So the pathway is firstly, somewhat ‘famous’, and further, in some respect ‘divine’ and related to mortals who have knowledge. These two lines indicate to the listener a sense of familiarity of this pathway to themselves, but is contrasted immediately, with a divine direction that is being pursued by a mortal having the opposite sense, unexplored. Something very familiar to mortals yet unexplored is being proposed here as characterising the pathway to be travelled.

It is not until the end of the proem that this familiar yet unexplored pathway is further explicated. The mortal having been welcomed by a goddess in hand is spoken to and told first that this pathway is “far indeed from the beaten track of men”(1.27). What exactly is so far removed here? In the remaining lines we have an answer. These following lines read like a proclamation: “it is right that you should learn all things/ both the steadfast heart of persuasive truth,/ and the beliefs of mortals, in which there is no true trust.” (1.28-30).

The unexplored pathway appears to require the traveller undergo a specific experience, of experiencing the “steadfast heart” of truth along with the “no true trust” of mortals. It is interesting to note, that we are within a divine perspective as the goddess is telling the mortal man what is to be experienced about truth. Thus already, the pathway that is spoken of places the traveller off the ‘beaten track of men’, not onto this experience just yet, but prepares the traveller in foreshadowing it.

This experience of foreshadowing by the goddess appears to me essential. Without having a clue or indication of what the pathway requires of the traveller, there is every chance that the traveller will, so to speak, drift off course back onto the ‘beaten track of men’. It is precisely here that we can speak of a philosophical purpose of the proem. In spite of no substantive claims or arguments presented, there is merit in the guiding declaration, that truth in its essential gripping nature and lack of trust by mortals will be “learn[t]” (1.27).

In conclusion, we can see that the foreshadowing speech of the goddess, while not providing the ‘goods’ of an argument, does provide or set the tone for what the arguments will be about. Thus, the proem guides the listener himself to be on the lookout for an unexplored yet familiar way of experiencing ‘truth’ (aletheia).

References
Parmenides. Parmenides of Elea. Translated by David Gallop. University of Toronto Press, London. 1984.
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